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IRC logs for #guix, 2016-04-30 (GMT)

2016-04-29
2016-05-01
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[00:17:34]<lfam_>Looks like I'll need to update camlp4 when updating ocaml
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[00:21:53]<lfam_>Hm, it's tricky :(
[00:22:11]<rain1>because they're cross linked?
[00:25:00]<lfam_>I'm not sure why yet. It fails to build with "ocamlbuild: command not found"
[00:26:36]<lfam_>This version of ocaml is when they stopped distributing ocamlbuild with ocaml. It's a separate package onw
[00:26:37]<lfam_>now
[00:26:52]<rain1>it's always trouble knowing who provides what
[00:27:30]<lfam_>Thankfully they make it clear here: https://github.com/ocaml/ocamlbuild
[00:27:59]<lfam_>Sadly, I just wanted to update to fix a bug. Maybe I can just patch the existing version instead.
[00:28:47]<lfam_>Gah, I have to look up how to use SVN again
[00:31:42]<lfam_>Or not — they claim to have switched to GitHub: http://ocaml.org/releases/svn.html
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[00:49:21]<ng0>sneek: later tell jlicht: I don't see the full backlog. if there was anything else added it escaped the buffer. If there are problems, it's for other people to fix as I currently focus only on project tasks (ie: gnunet+secushare related works in all kinds of projects)
[00:49:22]<sneek>Got it.
[00:51:14]<ng0>sneek: later tell civodul: Okay, thanks. I see how and if I can or want to mirror this (a fix would be if there already was a .onion of the whole gnu.org/s/ space.. partyvan.eu has a mirror, but i haven't checked for /s/guix
[00:51:15]<sneek>Got it.
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[01:06:26]<f0ff>anyone awake?
[01:07:06]<f0ff>anyhow i got it up and running but bad me need nonfree kernel i think
[01:07:52]<adfeno>f0ff: Why?
[01:08:05]<adfeno>What is the message you're seeing
[01:08:06]<adfeno>?
[01:08:42]<f0ff>comfy with x and the fontrendering atm is very dodgy..
[01:09:31]<f0ff>i don't know what kind of video mode is running atm, but i know that is fine with non-free stuff
[01:09:40]<f0ff>it is ati
[01:10:07]<adfeno>Hm... ATI has an history of not being freedom frinedly.
[01:10:25]<f0ff>well
[01:10:26]<adfeno>But, we can have ways around it... Let's see...
[01:10:53]<adfeno>Is there a message that appears in the screen?
[01:10:59]<f0ff>yeah some firmware blobs heh.. also ksm is nice.. but i don't have that
[01:11:49]<f0ff>[ 4.231688] radeon 0000:01:05.0: Direct firmware load for /*(DEBLOBBED)*/ failed with error -2
[01:11:50]<f0ff>[ 4.231763] [drm:r600_init [radeon]] *ERROR* Failed to load firmware!
[01:11:50]<f0ff>[ 13.671541] 0000:03:00.0: Missing Free firmware (non-Free firmware loading is disabled)
[01:12:21]<adfeno>Hm...
[01:12:54]<adfeno>Can you tell me how many GPUs you have on your computer?
[01:13:02]<mark_weaver>f0ff: if you have the means, I would encourage you to acquire hardware that does not require non-free software to use
[01:13:06]<f0ff>none :P
[01:13:19]<f0ff>grr grr yes yes
[01:13:40]<mark_weaver>in any case, Guix is committed to including only free software
[01:13:51]<adfeno>Is there only one (ATI)? Or are there others available inside the computer or at your disposal to try out?
[01:14:22]<f0ff>no it is only the onboard stuff.. and that will remain ati
[01:15:27]<adfeno>Don't you have a spare GPU near you, so you can remove the current GPU and place the spare one?
[01:15:42]<f0ff>nope :D
[01:15:57]<adfeno>Hm.... That's complicated.
[01:16:03]<f0ff>hehe
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[01:16:31]<f0ff>so there is no simple way to just get a kernel that isn't deblobbed?
[01:17:31]<f0ff>feel wrong to just download and a slap a kernel from kernel.org over the system i try to learn
[01:18:34]<adfeno>f0ff: You could compile your kernel from source, but then you would loose your essential freedoms. And we won't be able to help you regarding kernel building or studying, if we find out that your kernel has non-free software that interfaces with the thing you're trying to do.
[01:19:29]<rain1>you can just use a package definition for the normal linux kernel https://wingolog.org/pub/linux-nonfree.scm
[01:19:57]<mark_weaver>f0ff: please understand that the hardware problem (hardware that requires non-free software to work) is not going to get any better until there is pressure on manufacturers from users
[01:20:21]<f0ff>yeah i know
[01:20:25]<mark_weaver>pressure in the form of reduced sales
[01:20:39]<adfeno>What you must understand, however, is that GNU Linux-libre has a *bug* that denies the user the ability to use non-free firmware that is supplied *by the user, after the kernel installation*. This is, according to Alexandre Oliva, a bug that is hard to solve.
[01:21:03]<mark_weaver>and that pressure is unlikely to ever happen as long as OSes that include non-free blobs and "just work" on such hardware
[01:21:36]<mark_weaver>because when it comes down to it, most users don't even think about this stuff until a situation like this, where an OS they'd like to use doesn't "just work"
[01:22:03]<f0ff>but with hardware there is always some middle stuff.. wheter they come on chip or afterwards..
[01:22:23]<mark_weaver>I don't understand that last message
[01:22:34]<f0ff>i guess it is kinda hard for vendors to release the "source" for blobs at times
[01:22:58]<f0ff>the hardware isn't all free
[01:23:11]<f0ff>and the blobs comes bundled with that
[01:23:42]<f0ff>it isn't software per see(sp)
[01:23:55]<mark_weaver>it's relevant whether OS distributors such as Guix need to include non-free software
[01:24:10]<f0ff>yeah
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[01:24:34]<mark_weaver>I agree that there are still problems with non-free hardware designs, but for now I'm just trying to hold the line at a place where *we* don't have to distribute non-free software
[01:24:36]<f0ff>i just wanted to state the problem and i see both sides in the argument
[01:25:30]<mark_weaver>*nod* I certainly don't claim to be fully satisfied with my laptop that can run free software from the boot firmware up
[01:26:44]<mark_weaver>anyway, guix is quite easily hackable. you can run it from a git checkout on your own private branch, and merge upstream changes from us or rebase your branch on our master branch.
[01:27:03]<adfeno>f0ff: Regarding what people call "free hardware" or "open hardware" (in which "free hardware designs" should be used instead), this is indeed a problem. However, we must recognize some priority of control and power here, like mark_weaver pointed out.
[01:27:29]<mark_weaver>I have to go afk for a while. ttyl!
[01:28:12]<f0ff>yeah i just installed it :) i got rain1's link so i'll check it out.. atm i just want to read the text in emacs without squinting.. i guess i'm in some s/xvga mode :P
[01:28:40]<lfam_>f0ff: There must be a way to make your text rendering better with free software. Are you on the console or in X?
[01:28:47]<f0ff>x
[01:28:57]<f0ff>console works fine
[01:29:13]<f0ff>but i'm so confy with x that i kinda require it :P